As a chinese Christian, I always find it interesting to see you ‘westerners’ trying so hard to defend your ‘faith’ – believer or not. And so easily those arguments lead to anger and violence, when the very core of any main religion is to ‘Love’. Heh. people really don’t appreciate what they have.

Wonder what Dawkin will say to my very athiest country. A better future if communist party conquer the world?

My piece is a reflection on why bare science and logic don’t often persuade religious people to lose their faith. I’m saying that this is because emotions are in the driving seat. Your post demonstrates that emotions may be in the foreground for some atheists too.

Violence and oppression in the name of religion are all too common and are to be condemned wholeheartedly. However, there are many acts of violence in which religion plays little part (from simple muggings to the horrific genocide in Rwanda), and most religious people (like the rest of us) are just trying to live their lives peacefully as best they can.

I am well aware of the points that you mention (the lottery of birth, the contradictions in scripture) and of countless other arguments against religion. Our problem is that many religious people are also aware of these arguments but do not find them efficacious. My post was trying to offer an explanation for this.

1) If a western christian were to be born in a muslim country they would hold an entirely different set of beliefs- think that through for yourself and try to deny it – your belief is a product of your parents belief coupled with your environment – nothing more, feel free to discuss this with yourself.

2) If your religion is bible based then you owe it to yourself to take a look at the ridiculous number of flaws, contradictions, omittances and known falsifications that exist in and around it. Don’t take your rel;igion for granted blindly. If I hear the phrase ‘thats why it is called faith’ i immediately hear the phrase ‘but I love him’ given in response to the question of why a woman stays with her violent husband. Love isn’t enough, faith isn’t enough. You are not stupid people so have faith in all you want, but not blind faith that leads to blind violence, torture and death.

You religious people have faith that god gave you a brain to think, but you make a mockery of your own beliefs by using it to become an unthinking slave and not using it to test your own beliefs. Slaves that have been the cause of millions of dead and still-suffering people – that involves everyone on earth.

Sounds like you had an interesting journey, I hope you’re happy with where you are now.

The above is a thought provoking piece, and as you alude, the discussion between an aetheist and a deeply religious person are on differnt planes, which is what one can expect, however even discussions between aetheists and lapsed devotees can get difficult. Your identification of their ‘love’ of a religion is probably a factor is not something I had thought about before.

I tend to avoid the religious discussions on Pickled Politics because they are really about cultures and not actual religions, although Jai always posts something on Sikhism which I read. Its difficult to have a conversation when people can’t seperate out the two.

A small correction , if you forgive me. Zoroastrianism , as Zoroaster promulgated, is very simple philosophy that is open to all. It is Parsi Orthopraxy of Zoroastrianism that is not open to converts. If fact it is through Christianity and Parsi Orthopraxy, then finally Zoroatrianism that I came through to being an atheist. A strange way perhaps , but actually for me, quite a logical conclusion with out any angst about shedding ones faith but still retain ones spirituality. In fact it was a blessed relief. But thats another story.

Justforfun